Frazier Park Estates Approved

by Brian Bierman

CORRECTION: I stated that Anita Anderson was removed from the meeting.  This appears to be incorrect.  Anderson told this reporter at the school board meeting that she had to leave anyway and said she should have sat down to avoid the appearance that she was removed.  I said she was because after she was told she was out of order, a security guard approached her and appeared to have escorted with her out of the room.  My conclusion was logical but based on circumstantial observation.  My apologies to Mrs. Anderson.

UPDATE: Some concern was raised that Anita Anderson may have spoken on behalf of our school board.  SHE DID NOT.  Anderson mentioned that she was president of the school board but went on to say she was speaking for herself. 

In addition: Linda MacKay said she had collected 326 signatures on a petition against the project.  Ray Watson said he could not take that into account because he did not know if the project was represented accurately on the petition and didn't know what questions were asked.

A frequent complaint made was opponents didn't have adequate time to evaluate the NEW project plan.  Lorelei Oviatt countered saying the new proposal had been available to the public since November of 2009.

The Falling Star project was today unanimously approved by the Kern Board of Supervisors.  The Planning Department was initially opposed to a development of over 188 homes because of grading contrary to our local ordinance and water supply.  The project changed.  Grading was minimized, brought into compliance and Cornerstone Engineering was able to sufficiently demonstrate to the Planning Department that there was enough water to move forward.  At least 60% of the project is to be open space, most of it hidden from view on Frazier Mountain Park Road and the freeway.

The majority of the meeting today was taken up by public comments for and against the development.  Most of that time given to those opposed.  One of those against, a lawyer named Mullins, compared Frazier Park Estates to a poor development in Stanislaus County.  Lorelei Oviatt of the Planning Department deemed this an unfair and misleading comparison and this seemed to be a repeating charge against the opposition.  That their concern, while valid, tended toward misrepresentation of the facts and exageration.  Oviatt said each of the objections raised were either mitigated or issues provided for as each phase is brought before the board for approval.  Yet opponents of the project continued on as if none of their concerns were answered.

Three spoke up in favor of the project, two in person, one in spirit.  Richard Sheffield of Antioch Nursery read a letter by an absent Steve Saunder of Gorman then shared his own support.  Sheffield said the Mountain Communities are dying on the Grapevine and said he believed Frazier Park Estates will bring tax revenue to support our local schools and some much needed employment; remarking on the loss of 4 teachers at Frazier Mountain High School. He also spoke of a "silent majority" in favor too intimidated to voice their support and mentioned the owners of Ace Hardware as an example.  Sheffield also said most of those against the project had their opinion based on misinformation; pointing out that the Tri-County Watchdog objections were repeats of their arguments against Tejon Mountain Village.

After positive comments, Anita Anderson scolded Ray Watson for granting too much time to those favoring the developmet.  In reality, 7 spoke against and 3 in favor if we include the letter written by Saunder and read by Sheffield.  And each was given sufficient time to make their comments.  Anderson was visibly upset, told she was out of order and removed from the meeting.

Supervisor Watson summarized his support for the project; dealing concisely with the concerns of those against.  Discussion of traffic impact was limited to On and Offramps.  But air quality issues were said to be of less concern than those that currently drive 28 miles from PMC to the freeway.

After board approval, The Mountain Daily News asked Frank Arciero a few questions.  Watch the interview below.

So there is enough water to supply Frazier Park Estates?

What did you think of the comments made by those opposed to the project?

What will this project mean to local contractors and suppliers?



This entry was posted Tuesday, May 11, 2010 at 5:59 p.m. by Brian Bierman and is filed under the category titled Local in the News section. You can skip to the end and leave a response. Read our Commenting Policy before you post.

31 Responses
1
Babs
5/12/2010
9:00 AM
The reason I signed the Watchdogs' petition is that the Lebec Water District has raised water issues with FPE. They are hardly extreme environmentalists. This matter has taken some peculiar turns with Planning allegedly opposing the 557-home development, then allegedly being instructed to come up with data favorable to it. I am uneasy. I want water not only coming out of my tap, but coming out of the taps of my neighbors in Lebec. Development should not harm existing communities.
2
LRJ
5/12/2010
9:16 AM
I agree with Babs. What's wrong with this (big) picture? Considering it's not just the issue of more people, it's really deeper than that, and the future of the hill communities, concerning the water supply.
3
jackt
5/12/2010
11:26 AM
First let me say that I am for development in the area. What does not rest well with me is this guy's statements.

His message is "Do you think that I would invest money and build knowing that there is not enough water?"

Here's the deal. This guy can build this community, sell it, transfer the profits to a Swiss bank account, and he will be long gone. He can do it. Would he do it? I don't know him enough to say one way or the other.

On another note: I would love to see a youtube video of Anita Anderson getting all jazzed up and being thrown out of the Kern county meeting. I'm sure it was an entertaining experience.
4
Babs
5/13/2010
7:49 AM
I have been told that the Kern County Water Agency has also raised objections to this project.
5
jackt
5/13/2010
8:27 AM
I have a place out in Neenach. Currently the nearest Vons/Ralphs/Albertson's (VRA) is 40 minutes one way in Rosamond, Castaic, or Lancaster. If they build a huge grocery store in Lebec the nearest VRA would be 20 minutes one way. This is a big (50%) improvement in distance to civilization. Tejon/Centennial might be bogged down for many years with environmental lawsuits. Smaller developments like this one have a better chance of getting through the system quickly. As for the lack of water, see "It's not about the condor stupid!" http://tj.jtusz.com/blog The watchdogs have cried wolf so much lately that nobody listens to them anymore. Their message has been diluted. By opposing each and every development in the area they lose the credibility they need to oppose any one particular development.

6
Babs
5/14/2010
8:52 AM
I agree that crying "wolf" is a big problem. I am not a member of the Watchdogs nor do I identify with many of their positions, but as stated above, I did sign their petition about FPE. Nobody else was doing one. This could be the moment there really is a wolf. It is not so much an issue of credibility but of water supply. I heard an account from a very mild and reasonable person about a community in a rural part of L.A. County where something like this occurred with a developer and an existing community. There was no water. The new people couldn't live in the new houses any more than the established residents could live in their older homes. They had to have water trucked in. It was an equal opportunity disaster. In the end all that remained were lawsuits. Just what we all need.
7
LRJ
5/14/2010
11:32 AM
I also read all about the woes of Agua Dulce, and that is something to consider for our area. This area has had more than it's fair share of "construction" in the 25 years we've lived here.

I can't speak for why folks moved away from the other areas to quite ones, but we, personally moved away from the commotion of the city life. We fully knew what we were getting into, including the wildlife no high school at that time, and that we'd have to travel "off the hill" for big box shopping and entertainment. Moving here was well worth it then, and still is, we support our local stores as much as we can, we enjoy the ho hum living, the stars at night, the quiet. We are still willing to travel if we must to a big box store "off the hill". The water supply IS THE ISSUE.

There are a few who couldn't get a well up and running, while building, but elected to go forth anyway, speak to them, about hauling in water each week. There are a few who's wells have gone dry as well. Yes here! This all prior to the current issues mentioned.

Talking ill about a group who is hoping to bring the facts up front, and dropping names of "a business" who is in favor of the project(not in these postings) is NOT the issue, the water is.

Enjoy reading the opinions here, thanks for open communication and the chance to say what I/we want to as well.

8
jackt
5/14/2010
1:29 PM
Babs says it's not an issue of credibility. Oh but it is. Kern voted 5-0 for what they believe is a developer who is going to create jobs. Do you know this guy? I don't know this guy. Does he even have the money to develop this project? His intention all along might not be to develop. He got the permission to develop through the system. He may turn around and sell the land with entitlement to BIG HOUSE MANUFACTURING company. It's a free country. He can do that.

In the Holiday Valley Estates (Neenach) people have orchards and are setting up new ones. One would assume therefore that we have plenty of water. What we don't have is a 55,000 sq.ft. Vons or Ralphs like Frazier Park will get. Wanna trade some water for your convenience and comforts?

As for the Watchdogs they're rabid dogs going after anything that moves. Bad karma for opposing Tejon Mountain Village in court is coming their way in the form of Frazier Park. Now that TMV is stuck in court they can't say that there will be more than enough development jobs to go around, don't need anymore.
9
LRJ
5/14/2010
2:42 PM
I have often said, I do not have to go to every argument that I am invited to. So let me question instead?

My first question is, have you ever attended a Watchdog's meeting? You are willing to travel to a bogus Vons, etc. to shop, if and when that happens, but not attend a meeting with the Watchodog group?


My second question is, who said Vons or Ralphs would be here because of the Frazier estates project?

My third question is, have you shopped at the Frazier Park Market, in Frazier Park? That seemingly is close enough for you to shop at?

My other question to you would be how much of all of this have you followed, did you go to the meetings in B'town and hear what all? The project was reduced due to issues and then, suddenly back to the original number with out all the needed information??

Perhaps I have misunderstood the concept, but I understood it was houses being built (a lot of them in a small area) around the high school, not anything other? YES areas for other things to come into, but where is it written this will happen?

Well stated, and perhaps rumors, but the local hardware stores, and the local contractors will not be involved in any of the TMV or the FPE projects. I repeat it's a rumor! Given the circumstances of out of area contractors, I'm old enough to believe that this is not just rumors.

"Wanna trade some water for your convenience and comforts?" You said it, I didn't, and no living here is not a trade for water. I see, I can according to your statement, shop at a Vons and/or another market (thus putting our local market at odds) but I and no one else has water at our homes/ranches up here?

You say you are assuming with the Holiday Valley Estates "therefore that we have plenty of water."......you are there and we are here, no one can assume anything and better yet, we should not! Facts are far better than assuming we know it all.






10
LRJ
5/14/2010
2:45 PM
PS: YES the petition was well represented with the facts and fully open as to the issues!
11
Babs
5/14/2010
2:50 PM
Maybe there should be a separate blog devoted to the Tri-County Watchdogs. It's useless to get sidetracked by opinions of them, away from the issue of WATER.

In answer to your question, jackt, no, I am not personally willing to trade water, or the existence of the Frazier Park Market, for Vons or Ralphs. But that's not my choice to make anyway.

LRC, I didn't know the name of the community involved in a similar situation. Agua Dulce--how ironic!

One thing I heard was that at different stages of construction, Arciero must demonstrate that there is sufficient water. If this is true, maybe some interested citizens could monitor. If we don't like the way the Watchdogs do things, perhaps we should step up and do it ourselves.

In a poll about Frazier Park Estates, I remember feeling irritated and voting "I don't own the property." I still don't, and I believe in private property rights, but if an existing community is starved for water by new development, this might supersede some private property rights.

I too am glad to see people speaking up in the Mountain Daily News. It's about time.
12
Babs
5/14/2010
2:55 PM
LRJ, sorry for the misspelling of your moniker.
13
Babs
5/14/2010
3:02 PM
I can't resist this. Yes, I have attended a Watchdogs meeting. Years ago, when I wrote for the "other" newspaper, I was asked to cover a Watchdogs meeting because it was rumored Erin Brockovich was the guest speaker. It wasn't Erin but a very nice woman named Paola who did a presentation on--WATER! As I recall it was more about water quality than availability. The meeting was just like any meeting of any organization, of which I have been to many. I say let's not make the Watchdogs the focus of this discussion, but take what we like and leave the rest. In the end, we are all human.
14
LRJ
5/14/2010
3:39 PM
I agree Babs. The issue is the WATER here, and further "construction" of which the planning department was pondering?

I also say not to focus on the Watchdogs who only brings forth issues,(like them or not) but the issues of WATER, a very precious thing to us all! It does not grow on trees, it's either here or it is not. I have understood that wells around the entire community are dropping in levels? No one speaks of this!

YOU are so correct, "we don't own the property" but should we not be involved how our property values go forth? NO WATER, whoooooooooooa.....that's pretty darn scary!


NO I will not be willing to trade water for frills either!
15
LRJ
5/14/2010
3:44 PM
Yes it is Agua Dulce! Many old timers up here went to meetings concerning that issue, and have since watched the water trucks going in to supply the demand, since their source went dry.

Will Frazier Park (the general term for all communities as we know it) go dry and eventually become a GHOST TOWN?
16
jackt
5/14/2010
4:05 PM
LRJ writes:

> who said Vons or Ralphs would be here because of the Frazier estates project?

Uh, the FPE plan calls for a commercial center with a 55K sq. ft. grocery store.

As for water, the California aqueduct is like what, 6 miles away? Near the 5/138 interchange. Why don't you just lobby to get the developer to pay for a 6 mile long pipe and pump. Read my blog titled "Conjecture" http://tj.jtusz.com/blog/ Once you're connected to the aqueduct, just set up some solar panels and trade power for water down the line. Voila! Water issue solved.

There's another article out there titled "where are the watchdogs when you need them?" They should be the ones telling you these kinds of things, not me.

But hey, there's another article titled "It's not about the condor stupid" on my blog. Maybe it's not about the water stupid. It's about stopping development and water is the easiest thing to latch onto in this case.


17
deleeuw
5/14/2010
6:39 PM
Ah, it's Jack again. Hello Jack. The reason why the Watchdogs are not telling the public that the developer merely has to stick a pipe in the aqueduct is pretty obvious. It's nonsense. The water in the aqueduct is fully allocated to the 17 client agencies of the State Water Project, and even they get on the average less than half of their allocation.

There are, these days, quite a few agricultural interests who fallow the land and then sell their water. But at a high price. That's how Castaic and Mojave get their water. It drives up the price of the homes, and Arciero will have enough trouble selling them anyway.

As for your other comments: if somebody plans for a big-box grocery store it does not mean it will actually come. There will be less than 1500 people in Frazier Park Estates after 10 years. I don't think Ralphs will think that is quite enough. Even if they draw everybody from Lebec and Frazier Park (destroying the local stores in the process) they have 5000 people, not enough for a big store.

The BOS did not vote for the project because of the jobs. They voted for it because they do not have to pay for the local traffic/sewer/fire improvements coming from the mitigations, and still they get additional tax revenue in many different ways. And they get that all for nothing, because they will not be responsible for services, and it is not their problem if the water runs out or the Big One hits. That's why they insist on a Community Services District and not a Homeowners Association.
18
LRJ
5/14/2010
7:13 PM
Ah yes, this guy needs to perhaps move here and experience the real experience of our living to fully understand it all? The wells? I DOUBT there is a (and nor did I see) personally a guarentee that a big gorcery store would come here with the addtional homes to be here by the high school! I believe if the ACQ that jack refers to would be an option then why didn't the new construction and others tap into that? We can't just do that!

THE mission seems to be putting down the Watchdogs and the birds...he does not even live here but will have his "say" and personally (only) on his own personal level pointed out by HIM, he wants a grocery store he can frequent closer to him? HOW about his frequenting the Frazier Park Market, as is, where it is? NO he did not even respond to that!



19
Babs
5/15/2010
8:12 AM
When we moved here I was very pleased to shop at the Frazier Park Market. I still am. It is fairly unusual to have a full service grocery store (not supermarket) in a community this size. If I pay attention to what's on sale I do pretty well, though I do also shop at big-box stores from time to time.

I realize this is a blog--this is why I sometimes like to imagine throwing my computer in the trash--but hey, let's not focus on "jackt" either, but rather on how, if possible, we can protect our water supply.

My husband and I have lived here 21 years. Change is inevitable, but our community has become extremely polarized in recent years. Let's not help that process along with our bickering here. It is ineffably human to focus on a personality or personalities. That's easier than dealing with issues, but I think it's time to do the harder thing.
20
jackt
5/15/2010
9:42 AM
This is the tale of two developers, good and bad. Tejon Mountain Village was good developer, had all their environmental reports done by top notch firms, made sure everything was kosher, made sure the condors had enough mice and rats to go around. How were they rewarded? With a lawsuit by the watchdogs. Fast forward the tape a few months. Along comes Johnny fly-by-night developer. Now the watchdogs will be stuck trying to mount a lawsuit to stop him. Karma 101 if you ask me.

As for deleeuw's comment on the topic of conjecture: "It's nonsense"

Yes, I agree, it's all nonsense. It's all fake. Deus ex Machina brings us water in the Southland. The California aqueduct is not a natural river. A wacky de-sal solution and a straw leading to Frazier Park is just more nonsense. However, the whole system is based on artificial technology.

21
Babs
5/15/2010
4:42 PM
The Watchdogs 1) do the work, gathering information, and 2) share the information they gather. If you don't like what they do, ignore them. Rather than making judgments about people, I suggest that concerned citizens roll up our sleeves and see what we can do to protect our water supply.
22
LRJ
5/15/2010
4:49 PM
:~) Babs!
23
jackt
5/16/2010
11:49 AM
Here's what you do about your water supply. Supposedly the average price of a home in Frazier Park Estates will be $615K. You cash out and buy something in Southern Utah. Guaranteed nobody is going to want to build a big community next door out there to take your water. If you truly want country living you don't go to Frazier Park one hour from downtown LA and then act all surprised when somebody wants to build a big suburban sprawl development next door.

As for myself, if there is ever a drought I go to Lowes and buy 2-3 150 foot hoses and I look on craiglist for a $20 pump and I dip a straw into the California aqueduct next door to my lot and I have all the water I need. Deus Ex Machina!
24
bbierman
5/17/2010
8:06 AM
Babs, LRJ, jackt and deleeuw,

Thank you for holding the lengthiest discussion to date on The Mountain Daily News. I hope to see more exchanges like this in the future.
25
LRJ
5/17/2010
8:48 PM
It has been interesting:) I'm not sure if tapping into (even with a straw) to the aqueduct is legal????
26
Babs
5/18/2010
7:59 AM
Jackt, I don't want or have to go to Southern Utah. I was here before FPE. I wanted exactly what I got: a small-town area accessible to a city where I could continue to work. I'm not "act[ing] all surprised." That is not the point, and ridicule isn't productive. The point is simply to protect our water supply. According to California law, development should not harm an existing community. Like other laws, the challenge is enforcing the law.
27
jackt
5/18/2010
9:20 AM
Babs, silly thing is I agree with you. But there's an old saying, an enemy of my enemy is my friend. You have these watchdogs who have labeled Centennial as an obnoxious project. Centennial is none of your business just like FPE is none of mine. I get the impression, correct me if I'm wrong, that most folks in your area do not want any development. Most folks in my area are very frustrated because of the lack of development. So I'll stop having a party because it rained on your parade, if you call off the dogs. Somehow I don't think Che Guevarra (JdL) will go for that idea, so we're stuck with each other:)
28
Babs
5/18/2010
1:43 PM
Jackt, I am not a NIMBY. The Watchdogs make their own decisions and I am not a part of their group. I am the last person who would ever be able to tell them what to do. I am not worrying about Centennial. Centennial doesn't threaten anybody's water supply in these mountain communities. I don't know what most folks want and I'm sorry to say it really doesn't matter. If it mattered the Board of Supervisors would respect the Frazier Park Specific Plan, which was an expression of what the community wanted regarding future development. As I always say, "I vote that I don't own the property." For my part folks have the right to build whatever they like on the property they own--as long as it doesn't bring substantial harm to the existing community.

Bye y'all.
29
LRJ
5/18/2010
2:22 PM
http://www.bakersfield.com/news/columnist/henry/x1008888397/Dry-wells-prompt-groundwater-lawsuit
30
deleeuw
5/19/2010
1:11 PM
Well, Jack, since you asked. Yes, you are wrong. I think most people here welcome development that respects the specific plans and that, at least potentially, benefits the communities. But not if that development is merely a cash cow for the county, bringing in money that they then spend elsewhere.

We have doubled in population since the 1980 census, and most of that has been healthy growth. But putting 50,000 houses in the Tejon Pass / Grapevine / West Antelope Valley is not healthy growth and it will transform our area over 25 years into the next Santa Clarita (with longer commutes, more pollution, and more water problems, of course).

It is bad to be NIMBY if one's backyard is not worth protecting, or if one just wants to protect one's private economic interests. If your backyard is precious and unique, then it should be protected. We will try to make sure that you continue to have to drive 10 miles to get your coke and fries.
31
jackt
5/22/2010
11:04 AM
Correction. Cheesburger fries and coke was 10 miles away in Neenach when I made my statement in the TMV approval hearing. WeVill's market no longer serves food after 3PM as of a few months ago. Lancaster is 40 minutes away. Gorman/Lebec is 25. So currently it's 50 minutes round trip. The distance gets further. All the while downtown Los Angeles is 1 hour drive, give or take a few minutes, away. The situation is ridiculous.

Last time I was on my ranch in Neenach it was getting dark and I hear this deep hummm... What the??? I thought! Oh, it's the neighbor's new automatic watering system. It turns on by itself at 5PM. Turns out the neighbor just planted something like 100 fruit trees and installed an auto-sprinkler. Obviously they're not begging for water in my parts if they're planting new orchards. They just raised the water rates from $1.60 to $1.90 for 750 gallons. Life's rough:) My neighbor the other Sunday showed me his cooler. Full of fish. He had one that was even 3 feet long. Caught 100 yards away in the California aqueduct.

My neighbor bought his 2.5 acre lot for $29,000. The previous owner couldn't wait for Centennial any longer and got rid of it. Actually his woman told him that she won't move out there, it's too desolate. The new owner lives in Glendale and has the orchard for recreation. Says his son bought it for him as a long term investment, just in case they actually build Centennial. Everything out there hinges one way or the other on Centennial.

So, to make a long story short. Jan you (watchdogs) are the Taliban. Civilization reverses course and we go back in time because of your actions. 10 minutes distance becomes 25 and so on. Congratulations. Wish you luck in your lawsuit to stop TMV, FPE, Centennial... etc. Good dog stops the bad bad development!

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